Help! Strangely sore legs

Question:

From Brad Jaeger of Tri-Maryland. A lot more info is needed about your training and previous aches and pains. Height, weight, experience and miles accumuluated over the year. Any history of rhuematoid arthritis in family? Does pain and/or swelling decreasing with icing or with anti-inflammatory medications? When, where and how does pain increase or decrease with certain types of training? Diet, your full time job, family life, all of these must be taken into consideration. Maybe it’s physical, mental or a combination of both. Your best bet is to ask training partners or friends for their suggestions. Outside, but close influences will most likely give you the best (and cheapest) places to start. If none of these suggestions work, I would just join a convent.

Brad, Thanks for the suggestions. Gee, I posted my original question a long, long, long time ago! Since then, I figured out what was making my legs so sore and took care of it. They only hurt twice since then, and not strangley, but in the quite conventional way: once in Hawaii, and once last weekend in a 35-mile trail run (now I just need to figure out how to descend a flight of stairs Kostya Vasilyev SYMANTEC Corp. Development Tools Do not seek to follow swim-bike-run in the footsteps of the wise; swim-bike-run Seek what they sought. swim-bike-run — Basho

Response:

writes: From Brad Jaeger of Tri-Maryland. A lot more info is needed about your training and previous aches and pains. Height, weight, experience and miles accumuluated over the year. Any history of rhuematoid arthritis in family? Does pain and/or swelling decreasing with icing or with anti-inflammatory medications? When, where and how does pain increase or decrease with certain types of training? Diet, your full time job, family life, all of these must be taken into consideration. Maybe it’s physical, mental or a combination of both. Your best bet is to ask training partners or friends for their suggestions. Outside, but close influences will most likely give you the best (and cheapest) places to start. If none of these suggestions work, I would just join a convent.

Response:

[snip snip] I agree with Mark Jenkins. I experienced symptoms like Kostya’s several years ago, and I required several months (4 I think) to fully recover. I also agree with Matt Mahoney. Kostya, you just did a 10:45 at IMC. Back WAY OFF now, while there is still time before Hawaii. You will be much better off and you will NOT lose your conditioning at all. In fact the rest will do you some good. Rolf Arands, PhD

Great advice all around I think. Just a story to follow up on this. Last year a friend of mine qualified for Hawaii at IMC. He took two weeks completely off, and two more to ramp back up the training. Lucky for him, last year Hawaii was like 8 weeks after IMC. He said he still felt tired and "kind of run down" waiting for the cannon in the water at Hawaii. The last thing you want is to be tired at the start. To put things in perspective, he went 9:50 at IMC and 9:40 in Hawaii… I think the rest did him good. myke morgan p.s. personally, I feel great after my first Ironman. I think the 8 week (and counting) layoff did wonders .

Response:

Are you using a heart rate monitor? Sometimes there can be important clues about whether you are overtraining, overtaxing yourself, &tc. which your HR reveals, especially if you take it when getting up in the morning. — net.disclaimer: I do not speak for Santa Claus, no matter what I’m wearing.

Response:

: In the last 6-8 weeks, I’ve had some interesting leg soreness that I : think is not the usual lactic acid "burn". It is currently in the way : of my training in a major way, so I’d like to ask for adivce. : Are you using a heart rate monitor? Sometimes there can be important clues : about whether you are overtraining, overtaxing yourself, &tc. which your HR : reveals, especially if you take it when getting up in the morning. Not to overly alarm you, but did you see my earlier post on the net regarding arterial injuries? There are three cases of arterial complications causing unusual leg pains that I’ve uncovered here in North America. I’d be interested in hearing a more detailed description of your problem. BTW, I am NOT an MD, so this should not be construed as a consult!! Tom Ruta

Response:

: I’ve been experiencing a slightly different kind of soreness that : hopefully someone can shed some light on. About 1 – 2 months ago : I noticed that my joints were "creeking" a lot more than they used : to. It started in my knees and ankles, but now has spread to all : my joints. This has since be accompanied by short lived ( 2-10 seconds), : often sharp, mussle pains. A visit to the doctor didn’t turn up anything. : He said a blood test showed no sign of imflamation (sp?). : He advised me to continue training as much as I want. I can live with : the pain, but I don’t want to do any permanent damage. : Any idea? : Andy I’ll bet, if you asked him/her, your doctor would say that he/she is PRACTICING medicine. Most other professionals only "practice" until they know what they’re doing. Then (and ONLY then) do they charge a fee for their service. – Except maybe lawyers or Catholics. (sippinSamuelAdams&chucklininLongBeachCaliforniawheretheearthmovesundermyfe et)

Response:

inflammation has two m’s, nitz.

Response:

I’ve been diagnosed with Epstein Barr virus (reactivated) wass the term my M.D. used. I’ve been fighting this for a year +. fatigue, tired legs, slower training pace, weight gain, etc. Have taken periods of time off but to no avail. Recently I’ve been trying to train easily. Three months of every other day 4 mile runs with a heart rate around 140 or under. Suggested by one Dr. Falsetti in Calif. (cardiologist who trians bikers). Tried Prozac for two months based on success of Alberto Salazar…only got dull headaches…help!!!!!! what can I do? Is this really EB virus? Thanks

Response:

| Kostya, | | Let’s see you | started feeling this right before Canada. I would guess you were training | quite a bit. Was this your first Ironman? If I remember right it was. | Also, I remember you are on the young side too. Low 20’s right? | | An Ironman is quite an event and puts tremendous demands on the body. | Being your first one, I would think it would be even more of a shock | to a younger body that has not spent years building up to this kind of | attack. Ok, now you’ve finished the Ironman, what did you do in the | way of recovery? Look back at what you’ve done as far as workouts. | If you did any long runs (10+) or long rides (60+) within 3 weeks | of the race, I would think your body would be screaming right about now. | Also, if you did any high intensity stuff, you may have also hindered | recovery. I know you want to get ready for Hawaii, but you first priority | should be to recover from Canada. All of the training is under your | belt, rest and recover should be the motto. | | As they say..better to be over rested than overtrained….. Just thought that I would add some input since Kostya is in a similar position that I was in in 1990. I completed my 4th IMC and qualified for Hawaii. It was to be held 6 weeks later. I set a PR in Canada and "needed" to rest afterwards. I was 40 years old at the time and had done 45+ Triathlons during the past 4 years, so I had an OK base. I will agree with everyone that has suggested to just relax. Do maintinance type workouts and "SAVE IT". Keep realistics goals for yourself in Hawaii and don’t get sucked into running or riding too much or too fast in the days before the race once you are in Kona. Also make sure you drink more water than you ever have once you are there. Depending on the year, the course can be more brutal than others. At our awards ceremony they describe it as a "Legend" year. 20-45 mph winds on the bike and 110+ degrees in the lava fields. I actually saw a small fellow from Japan get *Blown* over on the last climb to Hawi. It was exciting and it was humbling, I was very happy to finish, even if it did take an hour longer than Canada. It’s a great experience, I have a picture from the bike course on my desk at work, mannnnnnnnnnnn it was hot! Good luck to you and everyone else that will be going, my wife and I are with you in spirit and hope you all have a safe race. Curt Simkins Hewlett-Packard McMinnville, Oregon

Response:

In the last 6-8 weeks, I’ve had some interesting leg soreness that I think is not the usual lactic acid "burn". … PS 3 weeks to go before Hawaii Ironman! Scary!

Chill, dude! It’s called "overtraining". I’m sure you read about it, but didn’t think it could happen to you too. Try to cut your daily 5-6 hour workouts down to 30-60 minutes or so. And not just tomorrow, but for the whole next 3 weeks. Start tapering NOW, dammit! #include "disclaimer.h" |____|

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the last 6-8 weeks, I’ve had some interesting leg soreness that I think is not the usual lactic acid "burn". It is currently in the way of my training in a major way, so I’d like to ask for adivce. –snip It started happening before Ironman/Canada, early in August. The pain is in my quads, hamstrings and calves. It feels like it’s on the –snip Simultaneously with this pain, I have a complete loss of power/strength in my legs. I.e., my speed on the bike on the flats drops from my normal 22-25 mph to like 16-17 mph. –snip Last Saturday, I rode 70 miles, very slow (avs = 17.5 mph). After the ride, my legs felt like Jell-O (and towards the end of the ride, too). –snip PS 3 weeks to go before Hawaii Ironman! Scary!

Kostya, Read Mark’s article on overtraining then look at what you wrote above and tell me if there is any correlation. Let’s see you started feeling this right before Canada. I would guess you were training quite a bit. Was this your first Ironman? If I remember right it was. Also, I remember you are on the young side too. Low 20’s right? An Ironman is quite an event and puts tremendous demands on the body. Being your first one, I would think it would be even more of a shock to a younger body that has not spent years building up to this kind of attack. Ok, now you’ve finished the Ironman, what did you do in the way of recovery? Look back at what you’ve done as far as workouts. If you did any long runs (10+) or long rides (60+) within 3 weeks of the race, I would think your body would be screaming right about now. Also, if you did any high intensity stuff, you may have also hindered recovery. I know you want to get ready for Hawaii, but you first priority should be to recover from Canada. All of the training is under your belt, rest and recover should be the motto. As they say..better to be over rested than overtrained….. Just some rambling observations. I hope my picking out some of the variables it might have made some sense. John K.

Response:

This sounds like the kind of problem that some serious massage work might help. Some heavy trainers really swear by it, and have their legs worked on regularly. If the rest of your body is complaining the way your legs are, massage isn’t going to solve the problem, but if it’s just your legs it might. Finding a competent masseur is another problem; maybe if you ask the newsgroup someone in your locale will have a suggestion.

Kostya, I have a few names of good masseurs that I fairly local. Send me some e-mail and I could tell you. John K.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the last 6-8 weeks, I’ve had some interesting leg soreness that I think is not the usual lactic acid "burn". It is currently in the way of my training in a major way, so I’d like to ask for adivce. It started happening before Ironman/Canada, early in August. The pain is in my quads, hamstrings and calves. It feels like it’s on the surface of the muscles, and is more of a stiffness than real pain. It is present all the time, not only when training, but training makes it worse. It does not go away, but if I take a few days off, it gets better. With this pain, I can barely train: i.e. I have to skip a few days and then run or ride and then it gets worse again. Simultaneously with this pain, I have a complete loss of power/strength in my legs. I.e., my speed on the bike on the flats drops from my normal 22-25 mph to like 16-17 mph. Last Saturday, I rode 70 miles, very slow (avs = 17.5 mph). After the ride, my legs felt like Jell-O (and towards the end of the ride, too). On Sunday, even though very sore, I went for a 15-mile train run and my legs really hurt a lot, but I was just cruzin’. The pain is definitely not the lactic-acid kind. If I try to really listen to my legs and feel what’s there, it seems that there is good strength deep inside the muscles (which are rested!), but this strange pain just doesn’t let muscles work my getting in the way. I know this is a strange request, but does anyone have any idea of what this may be? I am thinking it can be something like the compartment symndrome, any ideas? Thanks in advance! PS 3 weeks to go before Hawaii Ironman! Scary! PPS Stretching _really_ hurts!

Something to consider is the "overtraining syndrome". It is no secret among athletes that in order to improve performance you’ve got to work hard. However, hard training breaks you down and makes you weaker. It is rest that makes you stronger. Physiologic improvement in sports only occurs during the rest period following hard training. This adaptation is in response to maximal loading of the cardiovascular and muscular systems and is accomplished by improving efficiency of the heart, increasing capillaries in the muscles, and increasing glycogen stores and mitochondrial enzyme systems within the muscle cells. During recovery periods these systems build to greater levels to compensate for the stress that you have applied. The result is that you are now at a higher level of performance. If sufficient rest is not included in a training program then regeneration cannot occur and performance plateaus. If this imbalance between excess training and inadequate rest persists then performance will decline. Overtraining can best be defined as the state where the athlete has been repeatedly stressed by training to the point where rest is no longer adequate to allow for recovery. The "overtraining syndrome" is the name given to the collection of emotional, behavioral, and physical symptoms due to overtraining that has persisted for weeks to months. Athletes and coaches also know it as "burnout" or "staleness." This is different from the day to day variation in performance and post exercise tiredness that is common in conditioned athletes. Overtraining is marked by cumulative exhaustion that persists even after recovery periods. The most common symptom is fatigue. This may limit workouts and may be present at rest. The athlete may also become moody, easily irritated, have altered sleep patterns, become depressed, or lose the competitive desire and enthusiasm for the sport. Some will report decreased appetite and weight loss. Physical symptoms include persistent muscular soreness, increased frequency of viral illnesses, and increased incidence of injuries. There have been several clinical studies done on athletes with the overtraining syndrome. Exercise physiologic, psychological, and biochemical laboratory testing have been done. Findings in these studies have shown decreased performance in exercise testing, decreased mood state, and, in some, increased cortisol levels — the body’s "stress" hormone. A decrease in testosterone, altered immune status, and an increase in muscular break down products have also been identified. Medically, the overtraining syndrome is classified as a neuro-endocrine disorder. The normal fine balance in the interaction between the autonomic nervous system and the hormonal system is disturbed and athletic "jet lag" results. The body now has a decreased ability to repair itself during rest. Heaping more workouts onto this unbalanced system only worsens the situation. Additional stress in the form of difficulties at work or personal life also contributes. It appears that there are two forms of the syndrome. The sympathetic form is more common in sprint type sports and the parasympathetic form is more common in endurance sports. The results from various measurements taken during exercise physiologic testing differ between the two forms, but decreased overall performance and increased perceived fatigue are similar. In the parasympathetic form there may be a lower heart rate for a given workload. Athletes training with a heart rate monitor may notice that they cannot sustain the workout at their usual "set point." Fatigue takes over and prematurely terminates the workout. Regulation of glucose can become altered and the athlete may experience symptoms of hypoglycemia during exercise. I won’t comment on all of the differences between the two forms, but one example is resting heart rate. In the sympathetic form, the resting heart rate is elevated. In the parasympathetic form, however, the resting heart rate is decreased. If this sounds confusing, then you are not alone. There is very little agreement in the literature about abnormal laboratory findings. Additionally, it is possible to have the overtraining syndrome, but have completely normal physical findings and biochemical tests. At this point, there is no single test that will confirm the presence of overtraining. The overtraining syndrome should be considered in any athlete who manifests symptoms of prolonged fatigue and performance that has leveled off or decreased. It is important to exclude any underlying illness that may be responsible for the fatigue. The treatment for the overtraining syndrome is rest. The longer the overtraining has occurred, the more rest required. Therefore, early detection is very important. If the overtraining has only occurred for a short period of time (e.g., 3 – 4 weeks) then interrupting training for 3 – 5 days is usually sufficient rest. After this, workouts can be resumed on an alternate day basis. The intensity of the training can be maintained but the total volume must be lower. It is important that the factors that lead to overtraining be identified and corrected. Otherwise, the overtraining syndrome is likely to recur. The alternate day recovery period is continued for a few weeks and then an increase in volume is permitted. In more severe cases, the training program may have to be interrupted for weeks, and it may take months to recover. An alternate form of exercise can be substituted to help prevent the exercise withdrawal syndrome. All of the medical studies and advice on overtraining have involved single sport athletes. For triathletes and other multi-sport athletes the recovery process may be different depending on the circumstances. If it can be identified that the overtraining has occurred in only one discipline, then resting that discipline along with significant decreases in the other sports can bring about full recovery. It is vitally important not to suddenly substitute more workouts in one sport in an attempt to compensate for rest in another. The athlete that does this will not heal the overtraining, but will drive him or herself deeper into a hole. Overtraining affects both peripheral and central mechanisms in the body. Resting from overtraining on the bicycle by swimming more will help a pair of fatigued quadriceps, but to the heart, pituitary, and adrenals, stress is stress. As with almost everything else health related, prevention is the key. Well-balanced gradual increases in training are recommended. A training schedule design called periodisation varies the training load in cycles with built in mandatory rest phases. During the high workload phase, the athlete alternates between high intensity interval work and low intensity endurance work . This approach is used by a number of elite athletes in many sports. A training log is the best method to monitor progress. In addition to keeping track of distance and intensity, the athlete can record the resting morning heart rate, weight, general health, how the workout felt, and levels of muscular soreness and fatigue. The latter two can be scored on a 10 point scale. Significant, progressive changes in any of these parameters may signal overtraining. Avoiding monotonous training and maintaining adequate nutrition are other recommendations for prevention. Vigorous exercise during the incubation period of a viral illness may increase the duration and severity of that illness. Athletes who feel as if they are developing a cold should rest or reduce the training schedule for a few days. In conclusion, the prevailing wisdom is that it is better to be undertrained than overtrained. Rest is a vital part of any athlete’s training. There is considerable evidence that reduced training (same intensity, lower volume) for up to 21 days will not decrease performance. A well-planned training program involves as much art as science and should allow for flexibility. Early warning signs of overtraining should be heeded and schedule adjustments made accordingly. Smart training … read more »

Response:

In the last 6-8 weeks, I’ve had some interesting leg soreness that I think is not the usual lactic acid "burn". It is currently in the way of my training in a major way, so I’d like to ask for adivce. It started happening before Ironman/Canada, early in August. The pain is in my quads, hamstrings and calves. It feels like it’s on the surface of the muscles, and is more of a stiffness than real pain. It is present all the time, not only when training, but training makes it worse. It does not go away, but if I take a few days off, it gets better. With this pain, I can barely train: i.e. I have to skip a few days and then run or ride and then it gets worse again. Simultaneously with this pain, I have a complete loss of power/strength in my legs. I.e., my speed on the bike on the flats drops from my normal 22-25 mph to like 16-17 mph. Last Saturday, I rode 70 miles, very slow (avs = 17.5 mph). After the ride, my legs felt like Jell-O (and towards the end of the ride, too). On Sunday, even though very sore, I went for a 15-mile train run and my legs really hurt a lot, but I was just cruzin’. The pain is definitely not the lactic-acid kind. If I try to really listen to my legs and feel what’s there, it seems that there is good strength deep inside the muscles (which are rested!), but this strange pain just doesn’t let muscles work my getting in the way. I know this is a strange request, but does anyone have any idea of what this may be? I am thinking it can be something like the compartment symndrome, any ideas? Thanks in advance! PS 3 weeks to go before Hawaii Ironman! Scary! PPS Stretching _really_ hurts! Kostya Vasilyev swim-bike-run SYMANTEC Corp. Development Tools eat- eat -eat (408) 446-7165 program in C++

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