Saturated Fats…2 Other Problems!

Question:

Thanks! I did ignore it! There are issues and concerns, that affect all of us low-carbers, that need to be discussed. The main reason I posted was to get some further info, and hopefully have it explained why, and if, eating low carb offered some protection from the effects of saturated fats. To be told I’m looking for an excuse to go off the diet, was just ridiculous. I hope these attacks don’t prevent others from voicing their concerns about health issues on this WOL, as I’m sure if I have them then others do too. I’m not smart enough to know what I read in the media is true or not, and was hoping for an intelligent discussion of the issues I presented here.

A significant problem with most diet studies (not just keto studies although the biased media would make it sound like this is a flaw of only ketogenic research) is that most examine blood lipid profiles only during: a. weight reduction b. weight gain Neither of which is indicative of what may happen during weight maintenance. That is, even if blood lipids are improving during weight loss (as they typically do, almost irrespective of diet), that doesn’t mean that said improvements will be maintained once actual weight loss quits happening (i.e. the dieter enters weight maintenance). UNfortunately, most studies quit following subjects as soon as the weight loss aspect of the study is over, and very little data on what may happen during weight maintenance is available that I’m aware of. So while the research is fairly clear that blood lipids improve drastically during *weight loss* on a ketogenic diet, regardless of the type of fat consumed, this gives no real indication of whether or not those improvements will remain once weight becomes stable. Studies which showed no weight loss, or even weight gain on a ketogenic diet, *typically* report massive worsening of blood lipid levels, although at least one of those really went out of it’s way to feed the people shitty types of fats and high cholesterol. From the simple standpoint of hedging one’s bets, I think it’s far better to try and at least emphasize healthier fat sources (mainly unsaturated oils, esp. the rather hormonally neutral olive oil which is gaining much popularity in diabetic diets, as well as the polyunsaturated w-3 and w-6 oils) instead of relying heavily on saturated and trans fatty acids. Not that saturated fats have to be eliminated completely, but the types of high intakes taht are *typically* seen on ketogenic diets shouldn’t be considered reasonable IMNSHO. To me, this would represent the safest choice (i.e. erring on the side of more instead of less conservative) given the lack of data for blood lipids on a weight maintaining ketogenic diet (although note the the studies of the epileptic children, who typically maintain weight on their ketogenic diet, show drastically negative changes in blood lipid profiles). That is, in that we don’t know one way or another if sat. fats are health neutral in the absence of high insulin, I consider it the reaosonable choice to hedge one’s bets in favor of *more* unsaturated fats. Lyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << There are a bunch of folks on this newsgroup who are doing all they can to counter the stereotype of fat people as good natured, warm, and loving. Ignore them. You are asking good questions and it is unfortunate that a cult-mentality has become so prevalent on this newsgroup.

Response:

You might also consider that some of Atkins help line people have sent questions my way because neither they nor Atkins even understand how their diet works. I read with some interest the account where it took 600g/day of corn oil (but only 300g of olive oil) to stop weight loss on a ketogenic diet. Where was that study published?

This was the study you’re thinking of. Kasper H. et. al. Response of bodyweight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects. Am J Clin Nutr (1973) 26: 197-204. They did some weird crap to people in the 70’s. You couldn’t get that past an ethics committee today. Lyle

Response:

Intelligence and science? Ha! Does a Lyleist really know what those are? How can they while walking lockstep single file behind their hive-leader? Lyle gets a lot of it right, but his work still only applies pretty much to athletic youngsters and those aiming to fine tune perfection rather than the outer limits of the normal curve that starts with major ill health underscored with most of the markers for Syndrome X. Bull.shit. Physiology is physiology and I know far more about Syndrome X and non-athletic types than you have any awareness of. The same principles apply, at least in general. The specifics may differ slightly.

Wanted to add: it’s not something I talk or write about much because it’s a topic that I find relatively boring and uninteresting. But I assure you I know more about it than you do. I’ll be happy to explain the molecular biology of insulin resistance, hyperleptinemia, and hyper tnf-alphemia (made that one up) and how they contributes to Syndrome X to you some day, and I’ll even use little words so you don’t get confused. I’ll also tell you, if you ask nicely, exactly why ketogenic diets (or low-carb) are so much more effective in this population, than higher carb diets. Hint: it has to do with the effect of TNF-alpha on hepatic glucose output, and the effect of low carbs on TNF-alpha, but something tells me I’ve lost your stupid ass already. Taking weight off of the general public is a snap and any idiot can do it with the dumbest of diets (note the preponderance of dumb diets that work just fine as long as people can actually stick to them). Dealing with the issues of taking someone to low bodfyat percentages without muscle loss actually requires thought and it’s a lot more intellectually challenging for me (and we both know my little brain needs all the challenge it can handle). I can take weight off anybody over 20-25% bodyfat or higher in my sleep, without a lot of effort or to’ing and fro’ing. So you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t bother writing articles that basically say 1. eat less 2. exercise 3. repeat forever Which is 99% of what the extremely overweight need to know in the first place. Lyle

Response:

Sheellah, Please re-read the post I wrote. You were not "attacked". I *asked* if it was *possible* that you were looking for a reason to change your diet. I made no suppositions at all. It isn’t reasonable for you to ask members of the newsgroup to reassure you because you read something that upset you. Only *you* can decide if what you read is credible. If you read the postings here regularly you’ll also have read any number of posts from those (myself included) who had their cholesterol improve greatly eating this way. Again, no two people will respond the same way to the same thing. There aren’t any guarantees either way. Take care, Carmen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << Is it possible that subconsciously you are looking for an excuse to change your diet? If so, just do it. It’s your body, your science experiment. That’s a silly suposition to make! It’s because it is my body, I’m looking to to do the best for it. Because I’m looking at all sides of this, and looking for a little reassurance because something I read, that upset me, shouldn’t raise anyone’s hackles. It’s not an attack, and please don’t attack me because I don’t want to stick my head in the sand. You all should want to know both the good AND the bad of this WOE. I was hoping to be TOLD not to worry about it, and why! Everytime I read someones cholestrol went up eating this way, all that follows is a whole lot of posts, rationalizing, and making excuses for the bad bloodwork. You have to want to know all sides of this, and not try and cover up, and sweep under the rug, all the stuff you don’t want to hear. Maybe Atkin’s isn’t 100% right, or truthful. He’s hardly unbiased, with a multi million $$$ empire to protect! No diet is perfect, but so far I’m happy eating this way. But I do read, and some stuff out there is a bit disconcerting, and I had hoped it would be discussed by people here that are knowledgable in those areas. I hoped someone would tell me not to worry, and why! I didn’t expect to be told I was self consciously trying to find an excuse to go off it, which is childish, and untrue! Please guys, we are all in this together, and if someone posts something you don’t want to hear, because it’s of concern to them….well just ignore it, or address the issue intelligently!

Response:

Hi Lee, Apparently not friendly enough. Sigh. Take care, Carmen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Carmen you said what I wuz thinkin’ in a much friendlier tone. Lee Rodgers Is it possible that subconsciously you are looking for an excuse to change your diet? If so, just do it. It’s your body, your science experiment. Take care, Carmen Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org LOSE weight for LOOSE jeans. LOSERS have LOOSER jeans. "I have to say, if your mind weren’t so narrow, your waist would be." Dr.A Read the FAQ jack http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc Lowcarb Cookbooks http://www.lowcarb.org/cook_bks.html

Response:

I thought you asked a very good question, it was a pity the central issue was not addressed. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to offer some enlightment as to how to counteract the negative effects of saturated fats. I know omega 3 and others are useful, but do not feel confident that I understand the biochemistry enough to make a valid comment. Cheers Yvonne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was just reading a book I got from the people at Prevention magazine, about anti-aging remedies. Besides the risk of elevating your cholestrol, some things they wrote bothered me. Before reading this, I was happily eating my steak, eggs, sausages, cream cheese, and heavy cream ; (. The first is that eating saturated fats cause a much higher percentage of free radicals to be released in the body, which is NOT a good thing and is a precursor to many diseases. The second thing i read was that a steady diet saturated fats, switch off production of hGH, IGF-1, and DHEA which are youth hormones that decrease as we get older, and that keep you young, and slow aging. NOT good either. Do the low carbs offer any protection, from these two side effects of eating a lot of saturated fats? I know the diet is supposed to not raise cholestrol, but how about these other two effects from saturated fats?

Response:

Blow it out your ear sister. When someone writes in that their cholesterol went up and they are serious about sticking with lowcarb and reducing the numbers we rally round and try to help them find a solution to controlling those numbers. If seeing all of your posts as half baked excuses to not go lowcarb is sticking our head in the sand then so be it. You want a 1000% guarantee that what you do will be assured of success and that you will not have any negative health results based on the choices you make. Get real. Go ask the lowfat proponents to provide you with that kind of assurance and proof. All I see from you is a lot of yes, but yes,but yes, but. Either lead follow or get the hell out of the way with your bullshit. Lee Rodgers Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org LOSE weight for LOOSE jeans. LOSERS have LOOSER jeans. "I have to say, if your mind weren’t so narrow, your waist would be." Dr.A Read the FAQ jack http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc Lowcarb Cookbooks http://www.lowcarb.org/cook_bks.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nina, I own a copy of Lyles book. I even suggest that people doing ketogenic diets buy a copy of it to further their research and understanding. However, not even the great man himslef has all of the answers because all of the questions have not been asked. My response was to Gallagher’s automatic negative post whenever he has an opportunity to bad mouth the Atkins diet. Never any of the hard science proffered in Lyle’s book, just vague nonspecific crap. Now did I say Lyle’s book was wrong? No. I said that not even he gets everything right. Unless you are going to tell me that he has never made a mistake, never rewrote part of the book, never rethought some of the theory and has discovered all there is to know about nutrition with no room for growth and new discovery. So now I suppose I can prepare for Steve, the Lyle puppet to tag team with Lyle and his female friend to try and pile it on one who doesn’t worship at the altar of Saint Lyle. No thanks. Won’t play that game.

You can ignore Nina and Steve and just deal with me. I never claimed omniscience now and for eternity. But what’s in my book is correct and based on a lot of clinical research. What’s in Atkins is not. I change my beliefs and hypotheses as new research comes out. Atkins simply rehashes the same old shit and calls it a New Diet Revolution (the same mistakes from the original are in the New one). So bring the noise, Lee, I’m waiting. Lyle

Response:

Nina, I own a copy of Lyles book. I even suggest that people doing ketogenic diets buy a copy of it to further their research and understanding. However, not even the great man himslef has all of the answers because all of the questions have not been asked. My response was to Gallagher’s automatic negative post whenever he has an opportunity to bad mouth the Atkins diet. Never any of the hard science proffered in Lyle’s book, just vague nonspecific crap. Now did I say Lyle’s book was wrong? No. I said that not even he gets everything right. Unless you are going to tell me that he has never made a mistake, never rewrote part of the book, never rethought some of the theory and has discovered all there is to know about nutrition with no room for growth and new discovery. So now I suppose I can prepare for Steve, the Lyle puppet to tag team with Lyle and his female friend to try and pile it on one who doesn’t worship at the altar of Saint Lyle. No thanks. Won’t play that game. Lee Rodgers Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org LOSE weight for LOOSE jeans. LOSERS have LOOSER jeans. "I have to say, if your mind weren’t so narrow, your waist would be." Dr.A Read the FAQ jack http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc

Response:

To save some time while Lee gathers his cojones. This is the chatper from my book adressing some final issues regarding the choice of doing ketogenic diets. Please note the section on why CKD’s are probably inappropriate for those using keto diets to control hypoglycemia and blood pressure. I want to make a couple things very clear. 1. Unlike Atkins and others I do not per se *advocate* ketogenic diets. They have their uses, and they have their pros and cons. They are extremely effective and appropriate in many situations (esp. those involving severe insulin resistance/hyperinsulinemia and other aspects of Syndrome X) and equally ineffective and inappropriate in others (primarily where large amounts of and/or high intensity activity is being performed which requires carbohydrate in the diet). This can be said for just about any diet out there. In this sense, I consider myself outside of most lowcarb diet book authors who are out to sell people on why they should do a ketogenic/lowcarb diet. If it’s an appropriate choice for someone, I have no problem with its use (this puts me outside of most mainstream nutrition types who are too stupid to realize that diets should be individualized based on the need of the dieter). If it’s inappropriate, I disagree with it’s use. Simple as that. 2. The following is copyright Lyle McDonald, 1998 and any and all uses without my explicit permission are punishable by my hunting you down like the dirty dog you are and beating you within an inch of your life with a sausage link coated in canola oil. Oh yeah, and I’ll sue your ass too. I’m simply posting this chapter to get into Lee Rodger’s ignorant face. Lyle **** Chapter 16: Final considerations Introduction As stated previously, this book is not meant to argue for or against the ketogenic diet as the ideal diet for weight/fat loss or any other application. Rather it is an attempt to present a comprehensive account of what occurs during a ketogenic diet, and to dispel the many misconceptions surrounding the state of dietary ketosis. Additionally, specific guidelines have been offered for those individuals who have decided to do a ketogenic diet. As discussed in chapter 6, it is impossible to state unequivocally whether a ketogenic diet will be better or worse in terms of fat loss and protein sparing than a carbohydrate-based diet with a similar calorie level. This is largely due to the paucity of applicable studies done with reasonable calorie levels and adequate protein. In essence, the definitive studies, which would apply to the calorie and protein recommendations being made in this book, have not been done. It is this author

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