Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS)

Clomid and Vitex, WHEN, HOW

Question:

<<Thanks for the information.  May I ask you now where you got your information from because I am interested in reading up on it myself.  Not that I don’t believe you its just I would really like to know more Here it is!!  ( I don’t have any websites bookmarked anymore, but if I find some, will post……) Vol 4, No2, p.18., Health Counselor, Botanical Report Herbal Supplements for Female Health "Specifically, it [Vitex] has been shown to increase the secretion of LH by the pituitary while reducing the secretion of FSH.  As a result, the ovaries put out more progesterone, a goal in cases of PMS and many menstrual disorders.." Natural Regulation of the Female Hormonal System [Haller, J., Animal Experimentation with the Lipschutz Technic on the Activity of a Phytohormone on Gonadotropin Function (Geburtschilfe Frauenheilkund. 18, 1347 (1958)] [Belic, I.; Bergant-Dolar, J.; Stucin, D.; and Stucin, M.A.; Biologically Active Substance from Vitex agnus-castus.  Vestnik Solven Kemi Drutva, 5, 63 (1958)] "An early German study found that standardized extracts of Chaste berry (Vitex agnus castus) can stimulate the release of LH and inhibit the release of FSH. This hormonal effect has been confirmed in another laboratory report which suggests that the volatile oil has a progesterone-like effect.."

Response:

Thanks for the information.  May I ask you now where you got your information from because I am interested in reading up on it myself.  Not that I don’t believe you its just I would really like to know more. ) thanks, Crystal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<May I ask why you would not take Vitex if you have pcos. Ok….but it’s long!!  :) PCOS is most reliably diagnosed via Day 3 blood test….which would show that LH is 3x higher than FSH (e.g. 15:5, or a 3:1 ratio).  In normal people, LH and FSH would be about equal (5:5, or a 1:1 ratio). So, with PCOS, our LH is already too high….and this contributes to our lack of ovulation. Clomid is a poor drug for PCOS, because it elevates LH (and isn’t very effective).  With PCOS, our LH is already too high, and adding more LH (like with clomid) can cause premature egg degeneration, and is possibly linked to higher miscarriage rate when pcoers conceive w/clomid.  However, clomid will also elevate FSH, which is what we need to ovulate, with pcos. Unfortunately, it elevates LH, too. Without a doubt, hFSH (FSH-only)  meds like fertinex, gonal-f, follistim, etc. are extremely effective in achieving ovulation  for PCOS.  Moreso than  hMG meds such as pergonal/humegon, which contain both FSH and LH. Anyway, with pcos, it is extra FSH that is really needed to achieve ovulation. (either that, or control the insulin/testosterone that’s screwing things up in the first place). Vitex *elevates* LH.  Since w/pcos,  LH is already too high…….why would we elevate it even more by taking vitex?? Vitex *supresses* FSH.  But with pcos, we need the FSH boost make us ovulate! Why should we supress it by taking vitex?? It seems to me that using Vitex is totally counterproductive if you use it during the follicular phase, and  are trying to induce ovulation, if you have pcos.  Taken during luteal phase for progesterone support, I suppose it might be ok.  Just my thoughts! -Kay PCOS; 8 clomid (1 mc); 4 Fertinex/IUI (no pg); 1 IVF (ectopic); 2 FETs (no pg)

Response:

<<First, Clomid does *not* cause your body to make more estrogen.  It does the opposite.  That’s how it works.  In fact,  the lower/dropping  levels of estrogen are what cause the hot flashes, poor mucus and thin lining problems, associated  with clomid use.  Clomid works by blocking estrogen, the low levels of estrogen  in turn causes GnRH to rise, which then causes LH and FSH to rise, stimulating ovulation.

Well actually it goes like this…clomiphene binds to the sites in the brain where estrogen normally attaches, called the estrogen receptors.  Once these receptor sites are filled up with clomiphene, they can’t bind with natural estrogen circulating in the blood and they are fooled into thinking that the amount of estrogen in the blood is too low.  In response, the hypothalamus releases more GnRH causing the pituitary to pump out more FSH, which then causes a follicle to grow to produce more estrogen, and start maturing an egg to prepare for ovulation.  So in a typical clomid cycle a woman does produce doubled or triple the amount of estrogen compared to non medicated cycles. Sorry I didn’t type this out in detail the first time I just thought I would save some time and take a short cut. ) take care, Crystal

Response:

Ok I am going to quote a long version so to clear this up….. "Normally, after a woman ovulates, her follicles form a corpus luteum.  This corpus luteum releases estrogen and progesterone into her system for 12 to 14 days, at which point, if pregnancy does not occur, it stops releasing these hormones.  As soon as the hypothalamus detects a lack of estrogen in the system, it starts to release gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH), to start a new ovulatory cycle.  This occurs even before the menstrual period begins.  The presence of GnRH in a woman’s system signals the pituitary gland that it is time to release follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH).  The FSH and LH then trigger the recruitment of the new ovarian follicles.  As the follicles develop, they once again release estrogen into the bloodstream, correcting the lack of estrogen that the hypothalamus originally detected, and signaling it to decrease the amount of GnRH released. When this new estrogen enters the hypothalamus, it links to estrogen receptors. The hypothalamus estimates how much estrogen is in the bloodstream by counting the number of receptors that are linked.  When a large number of receptors are linked, the hypothalamus assumes there is a large amount of estrogen circulating.  That tells it the follicles are in the process of developing. If there are only a small number of linked receptors, the hypothalamus assumes that there is only a small amount of estrogen circulating.  That tells it that the follicles are not developing, have already ovulated, or are no longer producing estrogen.  When it gets these signals, the hypothalamus increases its releases of GnRH to initiate the next ovulatory cycle. If a woman’s estrogen levels do not vary appropriately  for some reason, her hypothalamus won’t get proper signals, and it won’t function correctly–it will release too little, too much, or no GnRH.  As a result, her follicles won’t be given a signal to develop, and she won’t ovulate. Clomiphene citrate helps to correct this situation by working as false estrogen, or as an "antiestrogen" molecule.  This means that it’s the antithesis of estrogen, inhibiting processes that estrogen stimulates–such as the production of mucus and the growth of the endometrium. When Clomiphene citrate enters the bloodstream, it mimics estrogen and combines with the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus.  When the clomiphene citrate molecules bind with the estrogen receptors, they trick the hypothalamus into believing that there is no estrogen present, and the hypothalamus responds by releasing GnRH, which then starts a new cycle of ovarian follicle activity." end quote This is a quote from Dr. Richard Marrs’ Fertility Book.  I have a least a couple of other books/resources that say basically the same thing.  I hope this cleared things up. Crystal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<.clomiphene binds to….estrogen receptors…. they can’t bind with natural estrogen … and they are fooled into thinking that the amount of estrogen in the blood is too low That doesn’t make sense (to me).  Sorry. (If you can explain it to me so it does, that would be nice!!) Since the receptors are "full" (filled/fooled by clomiphene), the body thinks there is an "excess" of estrogen floating around.  Therefore, it cuts off estrogen production., right? Estrogen drops, GnRH rises. If the receptors remained "empty", then the body would make more estrogen to fill them.  But they don’t.  The receptors think they’re "full" so no more estrogen needs to be made, so it stops making it. If estrogen didn’t drop, you wouldn’t get dry mucus, thin lining, or hot flashes w/clomid. << then causes a follicle to grow to produce more estrogen, and start maturing an egg to prepare for ovulation True, ovaries produce estrogen in response to FSH (stimulation).   This would be close to the time of ovulation, tho.  The timing is a little different (later) than when we are discussing clomid. <<  So in a typical clomid cycle a woman does produce doubled or triple the amount of estrogen compared to non medicated cycles Yes, near the time of  ovulation, and  IF she develops 2 or 3 follicles.  This may be too late to counteract the mucus/lining effects (been there).  Also, this is not true where clomid is ineffective, and no follicles are developed.. Oh well, my clomid days are long gone, anyway!  Maybe that’s a "good thing"?  :)  -Kay

Response:

<<.clomiphene binds to….estrogen receptors…. they can’t bind with natural estrogen … and they are fooled into thinking that the amount of estrogen in the blood is too low That doesn’t make sense (to me).  Sorry. (If you can explain it to me so it does, that would be nice!!) Since the receptors are "full" (filled/fooled by clomiphene), the body thinks there is an "excess" of estrogen floating around.  Therefore, it cuts off estrogen production., right? Estrogen drops, GnRH rises. If the receptors remained "empty", then the body would make more estrogen to fill them.  But they don’t.  The receptors think they’re "full" so no more estrogen needs to be made, so it stops making it. If estrogen didn’t drop, you wouldn’t get dry mucus, thin lining, or hot flashes w/clomid. << then causes a follicle to grow to produce more estrogen, and start maturing an egg to prepare for ovulation True, ovaries produce estrogen in response to FSH (stimulation).   This would be close to the time of ovulation, tho.  The timing is a little different (later) than when we are discussing clomid. <<  So in a typical clomid cycle a woman does produce doubled or triple the amount of estrogen compared to non medicated cycles Yes, near the time of  ovulation, and  IF she develops 2 or 3 follicles.  This may be too late to counteract the mucus/lining effects (been there).  Also, this is not true where clomid is ineffective, and no follicles are developed.. Oh well, my clomid days are long gone, anyway!  Maybe that’s a "good thing"?    :)  -Kay

Response:

<<May I ask why you would not take Vitex if you have pcos. Ok….but it’s long!!  :) PCOS is most reliably diagnosed via Day 3 blood test….which would show that LH is 3x higher than FSH (e.g. 15:5, or a 3:1 ratio).  In normal people, LH and FSH would be about equal (5:5, or a 1:1 ratio).   So, with PCOS, our LH is already too high….and this contributes to our lack of ovulation. Clomid is a poor drug for PCOS, because it elevates LH (and isn’t very effective).  With PCOS, our LH is already too high, and adding more LH (like with clomid) can cause premature egg degeneration, and is possibly linked to higher miscarriage rate when pcoers conceive w/clomid.  However, clomid will also elevate FSH, which is what we need to ovulate, with pcos. Unfortunately, it elevates LH, too. Without a doubt, hFSH (FSH-only)  meds like fertinex, gonal-f, follistim, etc. are extremely effective in achieving ovulation  for PCOS.  Moreso than  hMG meds such as pergonal/humegon, which contain both FSH and LH. Anyway, with pcos, it is extra FSH that is really needed to achieve ovulation. (either that, or control the insulin/testosterone that’s screwing things up in the first place). Vitex *elevates* LH.  Since w/pcos,  LH is already too high…….why would we elevate it even more by taking vitex?? Vitex *supresses* FSH.  But with pcos, we need the FSH boost make us ovulate! Why should we supress it by taking vitex?? It seems to me that using Vitex is totally counterproductive if you use it during the follicular phase, and  are trying to induce ovulation, if you have pcos.  Taken during luteal phase for progesterone support, I suppose it might be ok.  Just my thoughts! -Kay PCOS; 8 clomid (1 mc); 4 Fertinex/IUI (no pg); 1 IVF (ectopic); 2 FETs (no pg)

Response:

<<How did you decide that Vitex was the right thing to take?  Why did you choose Vitex as opposed to False Unicorn? (I would not take vitex in the same cycle as clomid; I would not take vitex at all, since I have pcos)

May I ask why you would not take Vitex if you have pcos. thanks, Crystal

Response:

<< Vitex is suppose to normalize your menstrual cycles by restoring the the estrogen-to-progesterone balance.  Especially the progesterone.  Clomid makes your body produce more estrogen so by taking both at the same time you risk the chance of really confusing your body First, Clomid does *not* cause your body to make more estrogen.  It does the opposite.  That’s how it works.  In fact,  the lower/dropping  levels of estrogen are what cause the hot flashes, poor mucus and thin lining problems, associated  with clomid use.  Clomid works by blocking estrogen, the low levels of estrogen  in turn causes GnRH to rise, which then causes LH and FSH to rise, stimulating ovulation. Vitex does seem to have progesterone-enhancing effects, but this is indirect. Vitex  elevates LH, which stimulates the corpus luteum to increase progesterone production during the luteal phase. Vitex also *inhibits* the production of FSH.  So taking it with clomid seems counterproductive (and is also "confusing to the body") -Kay

Response:

<<I’m on my 2nd Clomid cycle and would like to try Vitex. I bought some at the store, but is it OK to take with Clomid, or should I wait to start Vitex after Clomid is done.

You need to give Clomid at least 3 cycles before you see if it will work. Personally I wouldn’t take it unless your doctor says that its alright.  Vitex is suppose to normalize your menstrual cycles by restoring the the estrogen-to-progesterone balance.  Especially the progesterone.  Clomid makes your body produce more estrogen so by taking both at the same time you risk the chance of really confusing your body and in the end the herb and Clomid equal each other out so that neither one can do their job.  So your best bet would be to take Vitex on the off months from Clomid.  I would suggest you try one more cycle of Clomid before going on to Vitex.  I know how Clomid can effect you.  I have taken it many times before myself.  I have one son conceived after one cycle and another son conceived after 3 cycles. <<What days do you take Vitex anyway, and how much??

Vitex can be taken throughout your cycle.  It has been shown to work in as little as 10 days but to get the full benefit of it you should take it up to 6 months or longer.  An infusion can be should be drank three times a day.  A 1 ml of tincture should be taken three times a day.  And you can take 1-2 capsules (400 mg each) up to three times a day. Hope this helps take care, Crystal

Response:

I’m on my 2nd Clomid cycle and would like to try Vitex. I bought some at the store, but is it OK to take with Clomid, or should I wait to start Vitex after Clomid is done. What days do you take Vitex anyway, and how much??

Response:

<<I’m on my 2nd Clomid cycle and would like to try Vitex. I bought some at the store, but is it OK to take with Clomid, or should I wait to start Vitex after Clomid is done. What days do you take Vitex anyway, and how much?? How did you decide that Vitex was the right thing to take?  Why did you choose Vitex as opposed to False Unicorn? (I would not take vitex in the same cycle as clomid; I would not take vitex at all, since I have pcos)

Response:

Filed under: PCOS

Related Posts

• Protein Shakes?
• AF after progesterone suppositories?
• report from endo appointment
• I need some really engrossing books to read
• Bald spots????
• SURVEY: Who is in their two week wait?
• Clomid, how long?
• vent(children ment/not mine/wanna scream)
• Temp Taking
• HSG & FERTILITY?